Posts by Doug Mason

4

The WT's starting date of the Seventy Years

by Doug Mason in

the wt starts its seventy years with the moment that jews entered egypt following the murder of governor gedaliah.

the wt guesses that the destruction and the murder of gedaliah took place in the same year.

however, the events listed in the bible as taking place from the time of the city's destruction until the entry in egypt require far more than two months.

Doug Mason

ScenicViewer,

Have a look at the Italian site; there is at least one English passage that is directly cited.

I touch on the subject (in English) at pages 22 to 24 of my study at:

http://www.jwstudies.com/Onscreen_Critique__October_Watchtower__Jerusalem_Destroyed.pdf

The problem is for the WTS to PROVE that the Jews exited Judah in the same year when Jerusalem was destroyed. There is no agreement on the time from the destruction to the entry into Egypt. For example, the Jewish Encyclopedia acknowledges the range of views, from two months (tradition only) to 4 years:

"The rule of Gedaliah lasted, according to tradition, only two months, although Grätz argues that it continued more than four years." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6548-gedallah

The WT cannot prove the year when the Jews entered Egypt and they cannot PROVE the year that the first exiles returned to the site of the destroyed temple at Jerusalem. They cannot prove that it happened in 537; because there is no positive evidence, there is a wide range of views, as can be seen by Googling:

jews return 538

jews return 536

jews return 535

Doug

4

The WT's starting date of the Seventy Years

by Doug Mason in

the wt starts its seventy years with the moment that jews entered egypt following the murder of governor gedaliah.

the wt guesses that the destruction and the murder of gedaliah took place in the same year.

however, the events listed in the bible as taking place from the time of the city's destruction until the entry in egypt require far more than two months.

Doug Mason

The WT starts its Seventy Years with the moment that Jews entered Egypt following the murder of Governor Gedaliah. The WT guesses that the destruction and the murder of Gedaliah took place in the same year. However, the events listed in the Bible as taking place from the time of the city's destruction until the entry in Egypt require far more than two months. The period from the destruction to the entry into Egypt was likely 2, 3 or even 4 years long.

A discussion in Italian on the subject can be seen at:

http://www.infotdgeova.it/storia/quando70.php

The PDF file is available at:

http://www.infotdgeova.it/downloads/70anni.pdf

Doug

1

"Hebrew Lexicon" (Davidson/Gesenius) and "Greek Lexicon" (Bagster/Thayer)

by possible-san in

http://www.babelbible.net/davidson/davidson.cgi .

http://www.babelbible.net/bagster/bagster.cgi.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/index.htm.

Doug Mason

It is one thing to be able to translate a word from one language into another but it is far more difficult, and critically far more significant, to understand the culture of the community that produced (and edited) each document.

This means understanding matters such as the religious politics, secular politics, idiomatic use of language, contemporary comprehension and understandings, purpose of the original message, the nature of the intended immediate audience, and so on.

Each writer was addressing their own immediate community, with the purpose of effecting change in that specific community. With regard to the existing texts, we are able to read only the viewpoint of one group -- the people who used writing as a means of communication. While we are aware of these other elements of the community, such as the royal household and the People of the Land, we are not provided with direct information from them. All we read is the propaganda of a group seeking power through the use of religious pressures.

A dictionary does not capture these significant elements.

Doug

2

October 1 and November 1 "Jerusalem destroyed" refuted, in Italian

by Doug Mason in

an italian refutation of the october 1 and november 1 articles "when was ancient jersusalem destroyed" is provided at:.

http://www.infotdgeova.it/storia/587.php.

http://www.infotdgeova.it/storia/587b.php.

Doug Mason

In addition, Carl advises me that his Critique of the October Watchtower article is also available in Italian:

http://kristenfrihet.se/italian/itpage.htm

Doug

2

October 1 and November 1 "Jerusalem destroyed" refuted, in Italian

by Doug Mason in

an italian refutation of the october 1 and november 1 articles "when was ancient jersusalem destroyed" is provided at:.

http://www.infotdgeova.it/storia/587.php.

http://www.infotdgeova.it/storia/587b.php.

Doug Mason

An Italian refutation of the October 1 and November 1 articles "When Was Ancient Jersusalem Destroyed" is provided at:

http://www.infotdgeova.it/storia/587.php

http://www.infotdgeova.it/storia/587b.php

Each URL provides the option of dowloading the relevant PDF and Word files.

Although some of my diagrams have been incorporated, these articles are completely the work of the Italian author.

While you are there, have a good look around the site.

Doug

11

Both the October 1 & November 1 Watchtowers avoid discussing the 2,520 years!!!

by Alfred in

did anyone else notice this?.

the "when was jerusalem destroyed?

" articles in the october 2011 and november 2011 public edition watchtowers were supposed to explain why it was so important to know when jerusalem was destroyed... but none of the two articles makes any mention about how the wt arrived at the 2,520 year calculation (to get to 1914)... did they think no one would notice???

Doug Mason

The WTS's "2520-year" theory relates to their ideas on the "Seventy years". However, they do NOT start the "Seventy Years" with the destruction of Jerusalem, which is the subject of their article.

If the WTS were to actually write an article on their derivation of 1914, their article (book?) would discuss

Daniel 4 (the prophecy being Neb's madness, not the dream);
Ezkiel (year-day, including their inconsistent application of Revelation, and ignoring what the Bible says ended the 70 Years);
how the WTS calculate the year when the first Returnees assembled at the temple site (impossible to prove);
the year they start the 70 Years (they need to ignore the destruction of Jerusalem); and so on.

This of course would make the destruction some years earlier than 607 BCE.

Doug

42

Onscreen Critique, NOVEMBER 1 Watchtower, "When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed?"

by Doug Mason in

i have produced a critique of the november 1, 2011 watchtower article, when was ancient jerusalem destroyed?

part 2: what the clay documents really show.. .

this critique is designed to be read on a computer screen.. .

Doug Mason

I have produced a Critique of the November 1, 2011 Watchtower article, “When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed? Part 2: What the clay documents really show”.

This Critique is designed to be read on a computer screen.

The file is available at:

http://www.jwstudies.com/Onscreen_Critique__November_Watchtower__Jerusalem_Destroyed.pdf

Doug

9

what do we learn from this?

by therevealer in

king saul that the time had come for.

animals.

but after saul won the battle,.

Doug Mason

Stories such as this one provide windows into the culture of the community that created them. Bible stories are not literal histories; each story is written with a religious purpose.

These stories reflect the nature of the community, of their belief in the direct interference of the supernatural into the natural world. History was therefore interpreted as actions taken by God(s), and these actions would be repeated should the community fail to learn from the (interpreted) history. The religious writers therefore taught that protection of the community and of the individual required full, complete and unquestioned obedience to God, and he spoke to them through the voices of these religious leaders who were writing these stories.

Do we see the same thing today? Are there religious organisations that say God will wreak his vengeance on people who disobey his voice, which he gives through them?

Let me give a modern example: a couple of years ago, Victoria experienced horrific bushfires, killing hundreds and destroying thousands of houses. One preacher said this was the result of God's vengeance against the State parliament enacting laws pertaining to abortion. The Bible stories need to be read similarly. (The fact that there were firebugs and that some fires started due to poor maintenance of power lines seemed to escape their logic. The main thing was to get people to align with their religion.)

Everything old is new again.

Doug

14

Giving public talk, need some help!

by Silent_Scream in

a very close friend of mine is giving a public talk around may about the bible.

he asked me to help him out (of course not knowing where i stand with everything).

a perfect opportunity!

Doug Mason

The Bible is a human book. Each writer was addressing their own immediate community with the intention of affecting the behaviour of that community. It is therefore critical to understand what each piece of writing meant to that community at the time it was written -- their culture, concepts, understandings, idioms, the contemporary secular and religious politics, etc.

It also means that we are reading only one point of view, so some is propaganda. Few of the OT people could read, and even fewer could write. Most of the OT was written shortly before and during the neo-Babylonian Captivity.

The list of NT books was decided by the dominant section of the Church during the fourth century CE, in collusion with the Roman Emperors. The accepted list was first drawn up in the 4th century CE by the Trinitarian Athansius. Unfortunately, not only did they select writings that suited their viewpoint, but they made serious mistakes. Several of the accepted writings were written long after the supposed authors had died. As one example, Paul did not write 2 Timothy; another example are the writings wrongly attributed to Peter.

Then we have the numerous deliberate and accidental changes during centuries of editing. So much so, that it is impossible to know what was originally written. Consider also the differences between the MT and the LXX (Jeremiah, especially), as well as the differences between them and the DSS texts. There is no evidence that God bothered to protect the text.

I suggest that your friend distribute printed copies of his speech at the start of his presentation.

Doug

19

A Question About Satan (For Those Who Believe In The Bible)

by Philadelphia Ponos in

when the bible mentions satan do you believe it's speaking of a paticular indivuial or is the term satan used for multiple people?

to be more specific, do believe the satan that tempted eve, told david to take a census, tested job, and tempted jesus are the same person or 4 different people?.

Doug Mason

The book that discusses the subject rationally and intelligently is:

Satan: A Biography, by Henry Ansgar Kelly (320 pages, published by Cambridge University Press).

Doug